John Coal’s Game of Thrones thread in exile

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Re: John Coal’s Game of Thrones thread in exile

Postby Winnie » Mon May 20, 2019 3:27 am

Few of my predictions came true but I am satisfied.
I particularly liked Ser Brienne, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard updating Ser Jaime’s page.
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Re: John Coal’s Game of Thrones thread in exile

Postby Macunaima nli » Mon May 20, 2019 12:08 pm

Me too, John, which probably make us the only people in the world who are.

I think the big problem is that they rushed the ending. The dense, interwoven character development and intrigue we have come to expect from GoT get shoved aside in order to get the story over with. Given that operational error, the ending was the best that could be hoped for.

It satisfies me because now at least we HAVE an ending. Hopefully, Martin will write a better one, but I am not too optimistic on that point. Maybe the intense fan whingings will finally light a fire under his ass. But if D&D have rushed things, Martin has intentionally dragged them on to the point of tedium. FFS, how many hidden Targaryens do there need to be in the world and how many PoV characters is he going to inflict us with?

As you know, I was rooting for King Gendry and Queen Sansa myself. But given that one of the show’s long-standing themes is WHY feudalism needed to be superceded in order for humanity to progress and survive, I, too, am quite satisfied.

I LOVE how they made us think Sam was going to create the concept of democracy, only for it to be laughed off. Instead, they created and even more unstable form of elite democracy which, as anyone who knows history can tell you, will just ensure more civil wars after “Good King Bran” dies. (Though who knows? Maybe as a tree eyed raven, he’ll just grow himself into a tree and live forever, Paul Atriedes-style).

So limited democracy, voyages of discovery, an economic boom caused by a huge global disaster, political fragmentation of the res publica and the death of divine right kingship: all of the elements for the birth of modernity are now in place in the world of Westeros.

Was it Moorcock who said that scifi is how we imagine the death of capitalism and fantasy is how we imagine the death of feudalism? In that sense, GoT delivered fully. And I am also satisfied with where the Stark kids ended up.... except Bran. That was way too much Deus Ex Machina for me. Almost literally.

That moment where Dany appears with her dragon’s wings behind her, however? Golden. Also Jon killing her. He DID love her and that is indeed why he betrayed her. Also loved Brienne writing Jaime’s story.

The story makes sense and the ending makes sense and, as the small council meeting shows, it’s now business as usual in Westeros, which means betrayal and (hopefully less) bloodshed, but real, true social structural change is in the offering.

For people who wanted Dany and Jon married and on the throne, again, that is not the story Martin is writing. For feudalism to die and the “wheel to be broke”, true structural change needs to occur and THAT only happens through the accumulation of millions of tiny contradictions, allied to a fee dozen big breaks.

And Tyrion saying “it’s all stories”? Spot on. I will be using that in class today, in fact.
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Re: John Coal’s Game of Thrones thread in exile

Postby Winnie » Mon May 20, 2019 2:08 pm

“Book Quaithe” predicted three betrayals, the final one being for love. So, good call.
I’ve been saying for a few weeks that D&D threw logic and continuity under the bus for the sake of spectacle. They tried to bring story back in the last episode.
Too many people had been expecting a fairy tale ending. They saw Dany as a symbol of ... insert favorite hobby horse here.
But that was never the story Martin was telling. If his story was indeed the end of feudalism, it must have taken at least 20 minutes to bring that in. >SARCASM< Having Edmure Tully (Oh, sit down, Uncle) put himself forward as King was priceless.

Cynical old fart that I am, I was completely expecting Arya to ride in on a pale horse and be Death. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. The story fooled me there, as it has time and again. Gotcha.

No. I will not be signing any petition to re-do the final season. I was shown the story they wanted to tell me, and not the one I wanted to see. I can’t demand that Richard III live long and prosper, just because he has the best lines.
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Re: John Coal’s Game of Thrones thread in exile

Postby Winnie » Mon May 20, 2019 5:13 pm

Perhaps....
You are never going to get the perfect government you want. Compromises must be made.
Tyrion, who hasn’t done anything right in over two seasons, is made Hand of the King, to general acclaim. I could give a >cough cough< reference to Joe Biden, but that’s for another thread entirely.
Bronn, who can’t be trusted to even be literate, is given possibly the most responsible Cabinet post. Again, that’s for another thread.
Democracy is laughed down. Best quote I read this morning. “Sansa won the popular vote, but Bran had the Electoral College.”

On line critics are incensed that they did not get the story ending they wanted, or even worse “deserved”. Since when do we get to vote on how a story ends? We don’t get to vote on History. Why should fiction turn out the way we want? Bullshit.

We have seen the genesis of the Holy Westerosi Empire. We can already see gaping flaws in the system. The North has taken itself out of the League of Nations.

It will be messy. Why should we expect anything different?
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Re: John Coal’s Game of Thrones thread in exile

Postby Hitler » Mon May 20, 2019 6:06 pm

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Re: John Coal’s Game of Thrones thread in exile

Postby Brandon the Broken » Mon May 20, 2019 10:39 pm

“Why do you think I came all this way?”
You guessed it. I’m behind it all.
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Re: John Coal’s Game of Thrones thread in exile

Postby Condottiero » Tue May 21, 2019 12:25 pm

Winnie wrote:“Book Quaithe” predicted three betrayals, the final one being for love. So, good call.
I’ve been saying for a few weeks that D&D threw logic and continuity under the bus for the sake of spectacle. They tried to bring story back in the last episode.
Too many people had been expecting a fairy tale ending. They saw Dany as a symbol of ... insert favorite hobby horse here.
But that was never the story Martin was telling. If his story was indeed the end of feudalism, it must have taken at least 20 minutes to bring that in. >SARCASM< Having Edmure Tully (Oh, sit down, Uncle) put himself forward as King was priceless.

Cynical old fart that I am, I was completely expecting Arya to ride in on a pale horse and be Death. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. The story fooled me there, as it has time and again. Gotcha.

No. I will not be signing any petition to re-do the final season. I was shown the story they wanted to tell me, and not the one I wanted to see. I can’t demand that Richard III live long and prosper, just because he has the best lines.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Jaysus, you and the nutty professor are easily entertained...

No one was expecting as fairy tale ending, but we were expecting consistency. Who was expecting Dany bois to be a symbol of anything other than entitlement and D&D's mouthpiece for whatever shallow stance they were trying to make? The story ceased being Martin's since the start of the Dorne arc and more D&D's watered down generic crap loosely based on some outline and conveniently wrapped up, like the movie version of The Scarlet Letter.

The Real Reason Fans Hate the Last Season of Game of Thrones:It's not just bad storytelling—it’s because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological...
Game of Thrones, in its eighth and final season, is as big as television gets these days. More than 17 million people watched the season’s opening. Judging by the fan and critic reaction though, it seems that a substantial portion of those millions are loathing the season. Indeed, most of the reviews and fan discussions seem to be pondering where the acclaimed series went wrong, with many theories on exactly why it went downhill.

The show did indeed take a turn for the worse, but the reasons for that downturn go way deeper than the usual suspects that have been identified (new and inferior writers, shortened season, too many plot holes). It’s not that these are incorrect, but they’re just superficial shifts. In fact, the souring of Game of Thrones exposes a fundamental shortcoming of our storytelling culture in general: we don’t really know how to tell sociological stories.

At its best, GOT was a beast as rare as a friendly dragon in King’s Landing: it was sociological and institutional storytelling in a medium dominated by the psychological and the individual. This structural storytelling era of the show lasted through the seasons when it was based on the novels by George R. R. Martin, who seemed to specialize in having characters evolve in response to the broader institutional settings, incentives and norms that surround them.

After the show ran ahead of the novels, however, it was taken over by powerful Hollywood showrunners David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Some fans and critics have been assuming that the duo changed the narrative to fit Hollywood tropes or to speed things up, but that’s unlikely. In fact, they probably stuck to the narrative points that were given to them, if only in outline form, by the original author. What they did is something different, but in many ways more fundamental: Benioff and Weiss steer the narrative lane away from the sociological and shifted to the psychological. That’s the main, and often only, way Hollywood and most television writers tell stories.
*SVM MALLEVS CVNNORVM*

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...
- Alphonse Karr
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Re: John Coal’s Game of Thrones thread in exile

Postby Winnie » Tue May 21, 2019 11:58 pm

I have a theory. :D
It’s why plot was so lacking in continuity.
The scripts for each episode were written by different people. And they were directed by different people.
Someone in charge should have coordinated this, but they fell down on the job.
At the end of Episode 5, Arya was covered in dirt and ash. Her face had huge scars and blood streaks. She famously rides off on the “pale horse” of Revelations.
Episode 6. “An hour later”, she is wearing clean clothes. Her is clean. No blood on her face. No horse.
Question. Continuity?
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Re: John Coal’s Game of Thrones thread in exile

Postby Voice From Limbo » Wed May 22, 2019 1:04 am

Those happen in the best productions -- there's a big one in Casablanca.

How about "GoT -- the Epilogue": all the writers and showrunners gather to raise a celebratory pint.

And are fried by Drogon.
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Re: John Coal’s Game of Thrones thread in exile

Postby Guest » Wed May 22, 2019 1:23 am

Voice From Limbo wrote:Those happen in the best productions -- there's a big one in Casablanca.

How about "GoT -- the Epilogue": all the writers and showrunners gather to raise a celebratory pint.

And are fried by Drogon.

Yeah. I want to watch that. They got a lot of ‘splaIning to do.
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