'71

Discussion of cinematic genius and disaster past and present, with a twist of froth.

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Re: '71

Postby Clayface » Mon May 16, 2016 11:15 am

Altius wrote:Random, tangential observation about the movie: Dublin appeared to have the ugliest wallpaper ever made. I know it was the 70s, but damn.


Dublin? :D

While this film is set in Belfast in the 70's, Belfast, like most Northern Industrial Towns, was not actually IN the 70's in the 70's. It was still pretty much in the 50's or 60's.

Dublin in the 70's was somewhere further back than that thanks to 40+ years of extreme parochial provincialist isolation.

A comparative effect can be seen in 'Get Carter' in which Newcastle does rather appear to be in the 1940's with '60's suburbs.
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Re: '71

Postby Altius » Mon May 16, 2016 2:13 pm

Sane Max wrote:
Altius wrote:Random, tangential observation about the movie: Dublin appeared to have the ugliest wallpaper ever made. I know it was the 70s, but damn.


Dublin? :D

While this film is set in Belfast in the 70's, Belfast, like most Northern Industrial Towns, was not actually IN the 70's in the 70's. It was still pretty much in the 50's or 60's.

Dublin in the 70's was somewhere further back than that thanks to 40+ years of extreme parochial provincialist isolation.

A comparative effect can be seen in 'Get Carter' in which Newcastle does rather appear to be in the 1940's with '60's suburbs.


My mistake. I'm going to blame it on not enough sleep and too many beers this weekend.

Yep. That's what I'll go with.

But still, horrible, horrible wallpaper.
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Re: '71

Postby kawasaki » Mon May 16, 2016 2:32 pm

I'm going to blame it on you being American.

All wallpaper was horrible in the 70s. Everything was horrible in the 70s.

The wallpaper, the furniture, the clothes, the telly.

Some of the music was OK, then disco turned up on the doorstep...

Anyway, 70s wallpaper is now a nostalgia thing

https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/RetroWallp ... ion&page=1

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Imagine that in purple. That's what my mum had in the living room.
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Re: '71

Postby Altius » Mon May 16, 2016 4:07 pm

kawasaki wrote:I'm going to blame it on you being American.

All wallpaper was horrible in the 70s. Everything was horrible in the 70s.

The wallpaper, the furniture, the clothes, the telly.

Some of the music was OK, then disco turned up on the doorstep...

Anyway, 70s wallpaper is now a nostalgia thing

https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/RetroWallp ... ion&page=1

Image

Imagine that in purple. That's what my mum had in the living room.


That's actually one mistake I shouldn't have made, because I heard the phrase "Belfast, Northern Ireland" every night of my childhood on the news just before showing footage of an utter shithole.

On top of that, I went to Catholic school and had to address the envelopes to Belfast for all our donations to the widows and orphans, which kindly old Mr. O'Niall would collect to take on his monthly business trips there. Sooooo many envelopes.

I have a vague memory of some brownish wallpaper depicting sailing ships on our living room walls, but I think that came from an earlier time. Then one day, my mother painted the whole room bright red. It was like sitting inside a tomato. That was the 70s for me.
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Re: '71

Postby Bronshtein » Mon May 16, 2016 7:02 pm

In memory of Ireland's Martyred Dead?

Re gaming the period - difficult - there was a very short period (70-73) when there were proper firefights but the 'RA quickly worked out they were fucked if they carried on trying that.

After that it was snipers, bombs and riots. Very occasionally when they got DShKs they tried it on in the border areas but again the army had withdrawn the green army from the ground, mostly to barracks and hill top forts. On the ground it was special forces and helicopter patrols mostly, with little road movement. You could try a base takeover with digger bombs and/or home made mortars and prigs backed up by 20 or so 'volunteers' with assault rifles but there weren't many instances.

So little scope for skirmish gaming except right at the beginning, but certainly not fire at anything that moved in any event. Yes I know about Derry, but given the target rich environment, that was a really low body count for a 'free fire' mentality (there wasn't one) and there were no repetitions. To be fair to the 'RA (fuck knows why) they had their own concerns about hearts and minds and generally tried to avoid wholesale 'collateral damage'.

There are good games to be played with figures if you can assemble enough civilians, rioters and a few gunmen, and on the other side army and RUC. Snatch squads trying to take organisers/leaders without getting lured into side alleys or snipers fields of fire while stopping burning and looting. The IRA players try and provoke the RUC/Army into shooting and into areas where soldiers can be picked off in ones and twos. The IRA get points for any injuries caused by the 'crown' and for any crown forces killed/injured and any property destruction which they can blame on the Army/RUC. The Army get points for keeping as much peace as possible - no injuries, no shooting, IRA arrested. The RUC can get points for as much mayhem as possible from any source in the early phase, as they can use this to tell Westminster 'We told you so'.

You can make an intriguing strategic/operational game of planning your strategy on both sides - the move from 'open warfare', to urban guerrilla, to economic targets, to mainland is interesting to see from the 'RA's perspective if you can be bothered messing about with internal politics, PR expectations/disasters -Gerry A and Bloody Friday in Belfast although Brendan Hughes took responsibility- and you can suspend your feeling if you were ever involved in it.

You could do Castlereagh interrogation role plays using that wallpaper as cruel and inhuman treatment. :D
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Re: '71

Postby kawasaki » Mon May 16, 2016 11:46 pm

Bronshtein wrote: To be fair to the 'RA (fuck knows why) they had their own concerns about hearts and minds and generally tried to avoid wholesale 'collateral damage'.



Fuck off.

Trying telling the families of the 21 people the cunts murdered in Brum. One of them was a friend of mine.

Or the other victims of the good old 'mainland' campaign

Or the 1700 civilians the fucking bastards killed in Northern Ireland, and the thousands who were injured? Eniskillen ring any bells?

The IRA were all about wholesale collateral damage. It was only because its members were mostly incompetent thick Irish cunts that the death toll wasn't higher. Adams and McGuinness should have been stuck against a wall and fucking shot, not given the glad hand.

While we're at it, any ideas on how to game Columbine? Or Sandy Hook? I'm certain there are some great possibilities there. What fun! Or, or, an alternate Bloody Sunday where the Bogside is declared a free fire zone and extra paras are shipped in to reinforce 1 Para?

Twats. Frothers hits an even newer low.
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Re: '71

Postby Bronshtein » Tue May 17, 2016 10:51 am

First up - read what I said not what you want to get upset about and then I might take you seriously.

Second - let's get the macho crap out of the way - Don't get in a fucking pissing contest with me about how many friends you lost in 'the Troubles' - I'll win.


As for the 'tell the families' stuff.

No-one said the Provisionals were boy scouts.
But they could have killed a hell of a lot more than they did.
I'm not saying it was because they were all good Catholic boys but the reason there weren't thousands more dead is a fucking sight more complicated than stupidity.

Stupidity rather than careful planning was probably responsible for most (not all) of their large scale murders of civilians. I know that's no consolation but it turns your contention on its head.
And I am no advocate for the IRA of any variety.

Games - I was answering Altius question.

Your problem stems from the idea all wargaming is about playing toy soldier games.
It isn't.
You can get insights (imperfect and not to be overemphasised) into conflicts with games that hours of reading would not give you.

Can you game Columbine - course you can. Is it a good idea? It could be if you wanted to know how different response models and preparedness might work in future instances if you don't sort out your culture. That would be a professional planning game but as a thinking informed civilian gamer it might make you pause before shouting your mouth off that the answer is to arm everyone.

Does gaming stuff like this demean 'the fallen'?

Depends how it is done - drinking each time a 'body' is hit and whooping it up - a tad I think you'll agree.
To see how things might have happened and happened differently - not so much.

As for Frothers hitting a new low - this is worse than the amoral bollocks on some of the other threads?
Get a grip.
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Re: '71

Postby Altius » Tue May 17, 2016 3:00 pm

"While we're at it, any ideas on how to game Columbine? Or Sandy Hook? I'm certain there are some great possibilities there. What fun! Or, or, an alternate Bloody Sunday where the Bogside is declared a free fire zone and extra paras are shipped in to reinforce 1 Para?

Twats. Frothers hits an even newer low."


With all respect due, that seems like an overreaction to me. As I said in my first post, I'm not interested in playing this as a game, merely asking if anyone else had ever tried. Bronie's post, to my understanding, appeared to point out how unplayable something like that would be. Fair enough, question answered. I'm fairly certain that no one here has any interest in playing torture scenarios or murdering civilians, nor has anyone seriously suggested it.

It might be easier if we made a list of all the topics we're not allowed to discuss, even academically. We could put it into some sort of FAQ for easy reference, so no one has their feelings hurt, because that certainly wasn't my intention.
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Re: '71

Postby Bronshtein » Tue May 17, 2016 3:29 pm

I suspect the bit Kawasaki got particularly hot under the collar about was the bit he quoted.
To be fair to the 'RA (fuck knows why) they had their own concerns about hearts and minds and generally tried to avoid wholesale 'collateral damage'.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough - maybe he wanted to be offended- the 'own concerns' were principally tactical - high civilian body count would have brought down a massive British response without much criticism from 'world opinion'.

The strategy was to appear to be the victims - difficult if you have just killed several tens of innocent civilians and injured hundreds more. If Kawasaki thinks I was ascribing high moral standards to the PAC he is mistaken (I thought the hint was in 'fuck knows why' but there you go) I was accurately outlining a hard nosed/cynical appreciation by the PAC of how much carnage was advantageous to the Provisional movement in weakening British public resolve before it provoked too much adverse publicity - particularly in the USA.
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Re: '71

Postby Altius » Tue May 17, 2016 4:28 pm

Well, for good measure, I'll also add that I was only yanking chains when I implied that my school was sending donations to the IRA. It was a crass joke - I thought we were all about crass jokes here - but maybe it was a bit too crass. For that, I do apologize. I did go to Catholic school, but nothing like what I suggested would ever be tolerated, neither by my parish, nor by my parents. For us, it seemed to be always present on television and in the papers, but I believe most people saw it for what it really was and were appalled by it.

I'm not backing down on my opinions of the wallpaper, though.
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