Who's playing Dragon Rampant?

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Re: Who's playing Dragon Rampant?

Postby Steders » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:37 pm

Played a few games when it first came out. I seem to remember one troop type was rock hard and absolutely dominated the games. (Ferocious foot maybe), been a while since I played.
Love the philosophy behind them (both sets)and we had fun playing, but I'm sure the DR points were a bit wonky.
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Re: Who's playing Dragon Rampant?

Postby Derek H » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:28 pm

The points system is broken, but it's still a fun game.
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Re: Who's playing Dragon Rampant?

Postby Australian Dawn » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:34 am

That's a bit of a pain.
Maybe they'll put out an expansion that'll patch the problem? I doubt it, but Frostgrave and In Her Majesties Name has plenty of support, so maybe they'll expand Dragon Rampant as well?
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Re: Who's playing Dragon Rampant?

Postby Derek H » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:12 am

I wouldn't hold my breath. You just have to be aware and play with people who aren't going to minimax.
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Re: Who's playing Dragon Rampant?

Postby An Absent Humphrey » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:24 am

I don't think the points system is that bad. Certainly the basic troops types are fine, though I'll agree that one or two of the upgrades and fantasy abilities do seem a bit out.
But I always have the feeling that Dan Mersey does some good amounts of play-testing, so I'm happy that it's more or less there.
As for playing with people who like to min/max? Dead true. DR is just not that kind of game and will not give an enjoyable game for either player if you go in with that mentality. But what game does, eh?
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Re: Who's playing Dragon Rampant?

Postby Tomkinson » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:53 am

Australian Dawn wrote:That's a bit of a pain.
Maybe they'll put out an expansion that'll patch the problem? I doubt it, but Frostgrave and In Her Majesties Name has plenty of support, so maybe they'll expand Dragon Rampant as well?


A Chaotic Humphrey wrote:I don't think the points system is that bad. Certainly the basic troops types are fine, though I'll agree that one or two of the upgrades and fantasy abilities do seem a bit out.
But I always have the feeling that Dan Mersey does some good amounts of play-testing, so I'm happy that it's more or less there.
As for playing with people who like to min/max? Dead true. DR is just not that kind of game and will not give an enjoyable game for either player if you go in with that mentality. But what game does, eh?


I have played Dragon Rampant a couple of times and am looking to use them to start off some simple wargames with my daughter (either these or HoTT but DR is looking the likely one). I admit I'm of a certain age now and I just don't have the inclination to wade through reams of rules anymore. As far as I can see they are great fun and really hit the brief - if you accept what the author's intentions were.

I honestly doubt it would get "expanded" in any substantial way. Dan Mersey is pretty clear about his aims for the rules so I'm not sure where you'd go further with it? His rules also seem to generally be approached very much as "self-contained projects" and when done, he moves on.

I agree about a couple of the upgrades/abilities - they feel a bit rum. But perhaps just simply make your own call on any tweaking? That certainly seems to fit Mersey's outlook on his own rules.

I doubt I'd bother playing against anyone I even remotely suspected would be interested in minimaxing so can't really comment on that issue.
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Re: Who's playing Dragon Rampant?

Postby Australian Dawn » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:25 pm

To some extent minimaxing is in the eye of the beholder I think.
The more adaptive the rules are and the more they inspire creativity, the more likely someone is going to get peeved about how someone interprets something in the rules and on the table top.

(Also some standardisation would be nice, so that everyone is on the same page and shows up knowing what sort of game their going to be playing, I don't really want to have to have an in depth discussion setting out how every single unit fielded works under the rules for that game every single time I play.)

I mean, my thoughts about ninjas from earlier were me being inspired by the options an open interpretation of the rules open up, not me trying to game the rules for some advantage over my opponent, but my enthusiasm for powerful, table top hopping assassins might not be shared by my opponent!

And if the point system is broken for a specific unit/power you might have trouble getting the mad keen Conan or ninja fan to see it that way when he's using his (possibly expensive, purpose bought, and beautifully painted) favourite army/unit/figure to mop the floor with you every time you play!
They're quite likely to see any complaint as the whining of a poor loser with a case of sour grapes dissing their mad skillz, especially if they didn't set out to game the system.
They might even take any suggestion that their success is not the result of a lucky streak or tactical genius as tantamount to an accusation of cheating.

A poorly balanced rules system can be a good way to start fights and lose friends (if you're silly enough to persevere with them, and if you're not they're just a waste of money) and IMHO it's up to the game designer to get the balance right.
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Re: Who's playing Dragon Rampant?

Postby An Absent Humphrey » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:54 pm

Well, that's just the thing with DR.
Although it has fixed parameters (the unit stats, upgrades, and fantasy abilities) it also has no fixed way of representing a unit.
So long as you construct that unit within the rules (and there's no fart-arsing around creating your own stats - you choose the stat that best reflects how you see the unit working, plus any suitable upgrades, plus any fantasy abilities) then each player could come up with a different idea on the same thing. And that would be fine because both would work in the rules.

There are no fixed stats for elves, for example. Player X may decide that Light Missiles with Sharpshooter upgrade is the way they see elves. But Player Y sees them as a bit more feral and goes with Bellicose Foot with Shiny Armour upgrade. Both are right and both are acceptable because they both work within the rules.
There are no army lists saying that Elves have to be this, that, or the other. It is not Warhammer and it does not have that kind of officialdom to it. You'll love that or you'll hate it. There are some suggested army lists in the book but Mersey makes it quite plain that they are suggestions and you should not feel constrained by them. And quite right he is too.

I think you should just get on and play a game of it and then you'll see what we mean. It sounds like you're stuck in only seeing fantasy wargames through a Warhammer lens, and semi-tying yourself in knots because of it; and there's no need to.
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Re: Who's playing Dragon Rampant?

Postby Levied Troop » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:16 pm

It's also worth noting that while Dan Mersey may not want to issue new editions ad infinitum he' quite relaxed about all sorts of adaptions and rules changes that players come up with - have a look at various forums for local changes people have made. The basic rules engine is strong enough to stand a lot of mucking around with, usually the sign of a good engine.

For Lion Rampant we thought the archer units were too strong, so we've halved the impact of shooting over half range for them. Also tempted to have a separate commander stand who can force a failed initiative roll for a unit he's with. And the players I play these with don't care greatly about points systems and generally fall about laughing* when their elite, newly-painted, unit gets duffed up by a bunch of scrot on lucky die rolls.

*although they probably sob bitterly into their Chablis late at night.
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Re: Who's playing Dragon Rampant?

Postby Bronshtein » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:27 pm

Interesting. Having just had a bunch of archers lurking in a wood duff up half my force as they ran for the corner in the 'A Gentle Stroll' Scenario*, I am interested in anything that tones down the terminal homing Exocet effect of longbows.
Apart from that, still enjoying LR - if I had any figures that would fit DR I might be tempted but I don't think a few Frostgrave bits and pieces is going to make it.

(*It was a cheeky but amusing Minervois afterwards, not a Chablis)
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