May Kicks Another Brit While They Are Down

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Re: May Kicks Another Brit While They Are Down

Postby Bronshtein » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:08 pm

I try and be sensible about Nazis - I am very content they are pursued within the law to stand trial for any crimes they committed for which there is no Limitation period.

I do not approve of the death penalty so do not approve of extradition to countries where such a penalty exists.

I think executing Eichmann was a mistake.

I do not think persecuting the families of Nazis is a good idea just because of their misguided affection.

I think Begum was a stupid teenager but that isn't a crime last time I looked.

She isn't apologetic for crimes others committed. So?

The point is she shouldn't be rendered stateless, and she should be judged using the due process of the law in the UK if we think there is an issue. Abandoning her, and her totally innocent week old child tells us all we need to know about the respect the Tory Party in general and May in particular has for the rule of law.

May had lots of form as Home Secretary and she hasn't cleaned up her act since.

(PS- If you hadn't noticed, we pro-Israel Jews aren't very keen on Islamist movements. But that is the point of having the rule of law - it stops our baser instincts overwhelming our humanity and better judgement. So whether we like it or not, Ms Begum is Britain's responsibility and we have a duty to help her and her child).
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Re: May Kicks Another Brit While They Are Down

Postby Guest » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:24 pm

But she doesn't need any help.
She's not being persecuted and she's not at risk.
She just wants to come back to Britain.
Fair enough. Let her family and friends pay for her.
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Re: May Kicks Another Brit While They Are Down

Postby Bronshtein » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:40 pm

A 19 year old woman with a newborn infant in a war zone in a refugee camp run by the people who were fighting her husband, themselves being attacked by Turkey?

No risk there then.

I didn't say she was being persecuted (although she is).

She can't travel now as she has no citizenship and no passport so your theory, like your brain, is fucked.
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Re: May Kicks Another Brit While They Are Down

Postby heaps of bodies » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:28 pm

snoflake wrote:I wonder if bronny would be so compassionate if this was a 15 year old bride of an unrepentant Holocaust era Nazi camp guard?


No arguing with that. Not because you are right, you understand.

Personally I think she should not be allowed back in, because we have enough fucking idiots, and one less will not hurt.
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Re: May Kicks Another Brit While They Are Down

Postby Bronshtein » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:54 pm

Ah! A Benthamite.

Mill of course may confound your argument if as he stated 'A person without virtue is morally lacking, is not as able to promote the good' but that reduces it to your failure to be virtuous.

Sidgwick may help you out if we consider the 'happiness', in the Utilitarian conception of the word, of the entire UK population by the return of Begum to be reduced overall. But of course we need to find a quantification of that happiness in the number pleased by adherence to the rule of law and human compassion and in Begum herself and in those who espouse your view. A knotty conundrum.

On the whole Utilitarianism may not hold the answer to this question.
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Re: May Kicks Another Brit While They Are Down

Postby heaps of bodies » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:59 pm

Bronshtein wrote:A knotty conundrum


It helps distract Teresa from having her majority reduced by another 3.
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Re: May Kicks Another Brit While They Are Down

Postby Hew Johns » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:30 pm

Somewhere in Merry Old, I would guess, is a teenager languishing in custody because she had the bad idea to run with her boyfriend as he knifed his neighbor and stole his car. Are we comparing tragedies with statistics?
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Re: May Kicks Another Brit While They Are Down

Postby Bronshtein » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:04 pm

No.

Irrelevant.

Your 'teenager languishing in custody' has her citizenship, her right to a fair trial and unless you can prove she was an accessory or was engaged in a 'joint enterprise' (a crime that needs serious review and trimming at least) will be acquitted (whether she still thinks her idiot boyfriend did the right thing or not).

The British Government has acted unilaterally and illegally in deciding she is someone else's problem and can be abandoned along with her child. They have abrogated their responsibilities in as feckless a manner as any third world dictatorship might.

Indeed it is the sort of activity one might expect from the USA.

And we haven't even left the EU to apply for honorary 51st statehood yet.
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Re: May Kicks Another Brit While They Are Down

Postby Guest » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:22 pm

If the UK government can delay her return long enough for her to become a casualty in a Syrian air raid that would be splendid.

win/win
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Re: May Kicks Another Brit While They Are Down

Postby snoflake » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:28 pm

@Bronny, thanks for the full and reasonable response!

Guest wrote:If the UK government can delay her return long enough for her to become a casualty in a Syrian air raid that would be splendid.

win/win


Dick! as much as I dislike this girl and do not want her to return to the UK, the law must be followed and unless we can palm her off on the Dutch or Bangladeshi's then im afraid she is our problem, though I don't believe we have duty to bring her home, she should have to go through the proper channels one has to work through when abroad without the correct documentation, and in war torn Syria that aint gunna be easy!
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