The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

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Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

Postby Il Segaiolo Pedantesco » Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:20 pm

Hermit wrote:
Bronshtein wrote:Having worked for a year on research in a stately home and had to put up with guides talking bollocks to the punters I am less inclined than Khusrau to smile on folklore, but I can see the appeal of two fingered salutes, defensive spiral stairs, knights stranded like turtles on their backs and gentle parfait knights. But it's all wrong.


The two-fingered "Agincourt Salute" has always puzzled me, but it's easy to have that romanticised idea it originated at the battle itself, considering how vastly outnumbered Henry V's troops were. You could just imagine him bolstering his ranks of bowmen by spinning a bullshit yarn to them that they were so important that the French had threatened to cut off the two fingers of their hands if they were ever caught (in reality, they would have just been put to death. They weren't worth taking prisoner).

Or even years later, the English tormenting the French over the battle because it was essentially won by the bowmen, and using a two-fingered salute to symbolise that victory.

It's all lost in history. It's a shame the rank and file troops in the 15th century were mostly illiterate, or we'd have a better understanding of what went on at that time.

At least we haven't yet devolved to accusations and innuendo, like on that LAF thread in which I suggested the English longobow wasn't Welsh... :roll:

A BS Historian's take on it: Two fingers up to English history…

Whilst reading the fascinating “Blood Red Roses” on the subject of medieval battlefield archaeology, I became aware (as Prof. Curry and many others no doubt already are) of a genuine inspiration for this myth, in the shape of contemporary Burgundian chronicler Jean de Wavrin (or Jehan de Waurin), as referenced in Prestwich’s “Armies and Warfare in the Middle Ages” (1996). I was pleased to discover a PDF version of Wavrin’s chronicle, hosted by the quite wonderful people at La Bibliothèque nationale de France. The quote that seems to have started this whole myth; appears in the English translation (found in the Fifth Volume of Book One – page 203 of this PDF document) as follows:

“…And further he told them and explained how the French were boasting that they would cut off three fingers of the right hand of all the archers that should be taken prisoners to the end that neither man nor horse should ever again be killed with their arrows. Such exhortations and many others, which cannot all be written, the King of England addressed to his men”.

Whilst the Middle French original reads like this:

“En oultre leur disoit et remoustrait comment les Francois se vantoient que tous les archiers Anglois qui seroient prins feroient copper trois doitz de la main dextre adfin que de leur trait jamais homme ne cheval ne tuassent. Teles admonitions et pluiseurs autres que toutes ne puis escripe fist lors le roy d’Angleterre a ses gens.”

..and carries a rather amusing modern French footnote, amounting to “this is really anti-French, but hey, all’s fair in love and war!”.

As you can see, the quote gives us the probable origin of the V-sign tale as a contemporary suggestion by the English that captured archers would be mutilated by the enemy. At the same time it strikes a fatal blow to the myth as it makes clear that the number of fingers said to be at risk is clearly three, not the two famously used in the modern gesture. The war-bows of the time, with a draw weight of around 100lb, would certainly have required all three. Interesting that this medieval myth, probably intended to spur on the archers by the demonising of the enemy, should give rise to the modern myth of a nationalistic origin for the two-fingered insult. To me this shows the real value of going back to the source material. Wavrin was actually at the battle, although we should remember that he was present on the French side, and so is unlikely to have heard Henry’s speech first-hand. He was also writing more than twenty years after the fact. But on the plus side, he’s about as impartial as medieval chroniclers get, having ties to both sides in the conflict (his father and brother fought and died on the French side, whilst he fought for England later on).

Neither Wavrin nor any other contemporary source mentions any manual sign of defiance associated with this, and the Agincourt archery story didn’t become popular until the 1990s. It can be seen as both innocent post-hoc rationalisation, and as a conscious attempt to ascribe great antiquity to a culturally distinctive gesture. Either way it’s pretty unhelpful in our understanding either of medieval history, or of the genuine origin of the “V-sign”. Any positive evidence for the latter seems to have been lost, and this myth has been constructed to fill the gap.
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Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

Postby kyotebue2 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:56 pm

John the OFM's return to TNP is greeted with cries of joy and equal cries of burn him at the stake.
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Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

Postby Picador » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:01 pm

kyotebue2 wrote:John the OFM's return to TNP is greeted with cries of joy and equal cries of burn him at the stake.


He's getting the attention he desires.
Stone Mountain's OK with IP theft, so Bill deleted his thread to protect him from looking a cunt.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg ... ?id=521602
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Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

Postby Il Segaiolo Pedantesco » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:12 pm

Picador wrote:
kyotebue2 wrote:John the OFM's return to TNP is greeted with cries of joy and equal cries of burn him at the stake.


He's getting the attention he desires.

Infamy! Infamy!
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Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

Postby Picador » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:27 pm

Il Segaiolo Pedantesco wrote:
Picador wrote:
kyotebue2 wrote:John the OFM's return to TNP is greeted with cries of joy and equal cries of burn him at the stake.


He's getting the attention he desires.

Infamy! Infamy!


Image
Stone Mountain's OK with IP theft, so Bill deleted his thread to protect him from looking a cunt.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg ... ?id=521602
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Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

Postby Bronshtein » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:34 pm

Il Segaiolo Pedantesco wrote:At least we haven't yet devolved to accusations and innuendo, like on that LAF thread in which I suggested the English longobow wasn't Welsh... :roll:

A BS Historian's take on it: Two fingers up to English history…

I was going to be all smug when he suggested there was no evidence for 'the gesture' flicking the Vs prior to the 1970s as I was very excited to use it myself in the early 1960s. (nasty precocious little urchin).

Then someone pointed him to Kes and eventually we got round to the 1901 Mitchell and Kenyon documentary film.

Why QI (fucking great source :roll: ) think it likely that it was a Victorian working class invention is not clear to me.

The Luttrell psalter (shown in the BS Historian blog) has been quoted as showing an English bowmen making the gesture:

Image
but the smart money is he's just pointing and in any case it precedes Agincourt by c70 years which, if it were a two fingered gesture rather buggers up the Wavrin theory.

I suspect it originated somewhere between 1415 and 1901 for unknown 'cultural' reasons. :D
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Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

Postby Picador » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:49 pm

I wondered where Condom got his cut 'n' paste from. Nice one Bronny.

I take it the BS historian wasn't around in the 60s when we were flicking Vs at each other in the playground. :)

QI's like Wiki with (dubious, often forced) comedy. I'd use Wiki as a source over QI though, but only as a convenient last resort. At least the king of smug Fry has fucked off, although Toksvig isn't any better.
Stone Mountain's OK with IP theft, so Bill deleted his thread to protect him from looking a cunt.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg ... ?id=521602
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Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

Postby Goldwyrm » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:35 am

Bronshtein wrote:Just had a quick chat in their shed.
They appear to be down to 2 mods Blackfly and mcfonz.
Sent a pm to mcfonz (who hasn't been around for a bit apparently) but that is still in the outbox - does nobody ever clear their fucking inbox?
Maybe that might work. Eventually. :roll:


Update - Appreciate your efforts. :beer: I did reach McFonz via the RP FB page today. He's sent along to Blackfly for things to get sorted.
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Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

Postby Il Segaiolo Pedantesco » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:03 am

Bronshtein wrote:
Il Segaiolo Pedantesco wrote:At least we haven't yet devolved to accusations and innuendo, like on that LAF thread in which I suggested the English longobow wasn't Welsh... :roll:

A BS Historian's take on it: Two fingers up to English history…

I was going to be all smug when he suggested there was no evidence for 'the gesture' flicking the Vs prior to the 1970s as I was very excited to use it myself in the early 1960s. (nasty precocious little urchin).

Then someone pointed him to Kes and eventually we got round to the 1901 Mitchell and Kenyon documentary film.

Why QI (fucking great source :roll: ) think it likely that it was a Victorian working class invention is not clear to me.

As opposed to being smug on other days? :roll: I didn't include this part in the cut & paste, as I knew he was wrong - I recall some British movies from the 40's/50's with the gesture - and wasn't relevant to the supposed Medieval origin.

Bronshtein wrote:The Luttrell psalter (shown in the BS Historian blog) has been quoted as showing an English bowmen making the gesture:

Image
but the smart money is he's just pointing and in any case it precedes Agincourt by c70 years which, if it were a two fingered gesture rather buggers up the Wavrin theory.

I suspect it originated somewhere between 1415 and 1901 for unknown 'cultural' reasons. :D

Doesn't look like pointing to me, but gesturing, just not the two fingered kind...

Wavrin seems the likely source for the gesture.

Reminds me of some interpreting these hand gestures to be the salutatio militaris...

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Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

Postby Bronshtein » Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:37 am

Il Segaiolo Pedantesco wrote:As opposed to being smug on other days? :roll: I didn't include this part in the cut & paste, as I knew he was wrong - I recall some British movies from the 40's/50's with the gesture - and wasn't relevant to the supposed Medieval origin.

I was talking about BS Historian being smug - I was agreeing with you.

Doesn't look like pointing to me, but gesturing, just not the two fingered kind...

Wavrin seems the likely source for the gesture.

Why?
He's probably the source of the myth by later wishful thinking jingoists, but I would say the likelihood of this being the origin of the gesture is low.
In the absence of other evidence it is possible but it does not appear probable given the inconsistencies in the story and of the story with the gesture.
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