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Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:47 am
by Bronshtein
Yes, the Henry Ford of restoration architecture - any style as long as it's Gothic :D

Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:05 am
by Khusrau
I think what Bronny was saying was what we thought we knew might not actually have been correct. I reckon though if you were manufacturing a castle model you might want to stick with the majority case.

Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:26 am
by Ssanemax
Bronshtein wrote:Except it's not true.
Is there any mediaeval evidence for the theory?
No.
It seems to be simply a nice piece of speculation.
Viollet le Duc certainly liked the idea and said it was so, but although a good architect he wasn't always so great as a historian.
Antiquarian speculation does not make it true.
I'm reluctant to go the whole hog and say it was about safety or about status or types of entrance as castle function changed but there is absolutely no definitive evidence why certain castle staircases turned certain ways.


even the bit about the Kerrs? what a pity, it's such a good story.

I often wondered how many sword-fights up staircases actually ever took place, it seems a bit odd.

Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:39 am
by Picador
I've always thought that if the besiegers are hacking their way up your stairs you're pretty much fucked anyway.

Why spiral staircases then? Because they don't take up as much space as a flight of stairs, especially in a round tower. Bloody obvious really innit?

Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:50 am
by Guest
Picador wrote:I've always thought that if the besiegers are hacking their way up your stairs you're pretty much fucked anyway.

Why spiral staircases then? Because they don't take up as much space as a flight of stairs, especially in a round tower. Bloody obvious really innit?


And I wonder if they spiral anti-clockwise (to the left) for the same reason that travellers used the left side of a road - that all roads lead to Rome (and therefore the Pope) and that travellers on pilgrimage are 'unclean', therefore they travel on the left because the left in latin is 'sinister' and you can only go on the right when you've completed your pilgrimage and are clean.
Purely conjecture, of course.

Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:58 am
by Bronshtein
The Kerr bit is odd, but may have a simple explanation (If there genuinely was a preponderance of left handedness throughout the entire extended family).

One of the more prosaic explanations offered for the preferred (c65%-35% by some accounts) clockwise upward spiral is that coming down a steep spiral stair that way round meant you could place the dominant hand on the wall rather than the narrow newel post. (sounds as unlikely as the sword arm thing to me). If all the Kerrs were left handed it would mean they had their dominant hand available to lean on the wall coming down.

Amongst the three or four people bothered by this argument the discussion about why would you be defending people coming up a staircase anymore than down one (do we think they thought escalade or breach was more likely? Escalade you're fighting up those stairs as a defender, whereas breach and you're fighting down) is almost luke warm - this isn't Napoleonics in another place.

As for the actual benefit of fighting right handed down a staircase - I wouldn't fancy it myself - you're battering away at the raised shield below you and some git chops your ankles off, or you fall headlong down the stairs - it's a health and safety nightmare.

Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:04 pm
by Derek H
Bronshtein wrote:The Kerr bit is odd, but may have a simple explanation (If there genuinely was a preponderance of left handedness throughout the entire extended family).


Shaw, D.; McManus, I. C. (1993). "The handedness of Kerrs and Carrs". British Journal of Psychology 84: 545–51.

The surnames Kerr and Carr have been claimed, on the basis of folkloric and etymological evidence, to be associated with an increased incidence of left‐handedness. In 1974 a survey by the Royal College of General Practitioners suggested that the incidence of left‐handedness was nearly three times as high in Kerr/Carr families as in controls. That survey was however potentially flawed by response biases. In the present study, which used better controls, no evidence was found for an increased incidence of left‐handedness in Kerrs and Carrs.

Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:15 pm
by Bronshtein
Khusrau wrote:I think what Bronny was saying was what we thought we knew might not actually have been correct. I reckon though if you were manufacturing a castle model you might want to stick with the majority case.

I suppose that's right.

It's like the Agincourt thing - absolutely no evidence for the two fingered salute having anything to do with bowmen's fingers being threatened with amputation, but it's got too much traction to disappear.


PS And the Kerr's left handedness apparently -thanks Derek. :D

Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:24 pm
by Khusrau
Bronshtein wrote:
Khusrau wrote:I think what Bronny was saying was what we thought we knew might not actually have been correct. I reckon though if you were manufacturing a castle model you might want to stick with the majority case.

I suppose that's right.

It's like the Agincourt thing - absolutely no evidence for the two fingered salute having anything to do with bowmen's fingers being threatened with amputation, but it's got too much traction to disappear.


PS And the Kerr's left handedness apparently -thanks Derek. :D


I wish people would stop disproving folklore. It makes for a much more prosaic experience of history. Professionals can 'tut' but it's those kind of details that engage the amateur, and keep tour guides in business.

Re: The Sad Cunts with No Life Thread

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:26 pm
by Bronshtein
Fake News. 8)